Curse

Stormbringer · Sep 11, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

First of all, this thread will only talk about warrior skills.
No other skills will be discussed nor debated over, except maybe those that snergize well with the warrior ones since I have more experience at using a warrior than at other classes.

After trying way too many builds, starting from utter-lolz-kind through the meh-type to the cookie-cutter ones, I felt that some of our skills need a think over.

I'll begin with the innequality between swordsmanship and axe mastery skills (surely I will get flamed for this).
But some of us like swords/axes over the other weapon and are kinda angry that you can do kick-ass spikes with an axe and only static dps with a sword (more or less true).

Both with [Conjure [email protected]]

[[email protected]]+[executioner's [email protected]] > [Crippling [email protected]]+[[email protected]]
Cripple and Gash have a dps of ~50 and require ~7 hits and in total you get like ~160 damage.
Eviscerate and Executioner have a dps of ~70, require ~9 hits and you get ~210 damage.

A small diffrence of 2 hits which on the sword vary from 40-56 damage and on the axe from 35~90.

You get more damage on the axe for those 9 hits than on the sword along with the degen from bleeding.
To reach the damage the axe does in those 9 hits the swordsman must add a skill like [Galrath's [email protected]] on the bar so it's 3 skills against 2 skills.

This made me think of changing something in the swordsmanship skills:

[Dragon [email protected]]
Since the +5 adrenaline is useless now that [FgJ](pvp) has been nerfed, why not change it to a sword eviscerate?
Deepwound for 20 seconds instead of +5 adrenaline. Lower adrenaline cost to 8. Decrease damage if too overpowered.
It would basically get rid of the typical and annoying [[email protected]][[email protected]] bars. Wouldn't you like that?
Of course, then you will have the problem of [Dragon [email protected]]+[Final [email protected]] being the biggest OUCH spike in the game.
What do you guys & girls think?

[Quivering [email protected]]

Now with a conditional very very short daze. How many of you guys actually take this skill? Except if the victim is snared (Hex/Cripple) you can't abuse the condition this elite causes. So you have to use 10 energy to hamstring *GASP* and do a good damage and a daze but if your target is smart (usually is the case) he will simply move away then cast his spells...
All in all, from this analysis, this elite is bad.

[Barbarous [email protected]] [Pure [email protected]]

Barabarous: 6 adrenaline cost, no stance conditional bonus.
Who in the world doesn't use stances?! If you want to dps you use an IAS period.
Make it infilct bleeding regardless of what you use. At 6 adrenaline, it would make this a "perfected" sever artery.
Or solution for both skills above: 5 energy cost. 1/2 Cast time.

[Knee [email protected]]

Why the 1 second recharge, can you actually spam this skill now that FgJ is nerfed, and Would you even consider spaming this skill, it would give infinite energy and plenty of adrenaline but still, what do you want to do with it? (Ideas are welcome =D )

[Whirling [email protected]]

Fast axe attack with mediocre damage bonus and a big drawback. Worse than[Keen Chop].
How about no drawback, and either automatic critical hit (OVERPOWERED!!!) or, same functionality as [Enraged [email protected]].
And I would make the damage limit at 60 for both these elites.

[Triple [email protected]] & [Hundred [email protected]]

Triple Chop has a dps of ~76 and you get well ~76 dmg

.
Hundred Blades has a dps of ~86 and *cough* .

Tested this and writing it because I really thought a +dmg was needed on Hundred Blades, I was wrong.

[Forceful [email protected]]

Big damage dealer, big drawback. Hit and 100 dmg minimum in the victim's mouth OR 0 damage and 2 second "Have Mercy!". Either way it is worse than [Devastating [email protected]] Since it doesn't KD and you need to be in a IMS to chase and hit the target with your weakness kd chain.
I would say to remove the drawback. At 5 adrenaline adding something else would make it way to powerful.

[[email protected]]

Needed to actually support the cost of energy attacks. 1 second of not doing anything... bad for any warrior.
Make it cast in 1/2 or instant.

[[email protected]]

100 armor ignoring damage for 15 energy (3/4 of you're pool) and a 20 second daze for an aditional 5 energy making it use all your energy. Not to mention that CoP can take the daze down instantly, and there are enough condition removals out there to make this elite BAD!

5 energy, 100 damage and Knockdown. (Zidane made Materazzi fall down!)

Oh and please make a headbutt animation! Please please please!!

[Primal [email protected]]

Worst.stance.ever. You can't even make it better by using Dwarven Stability, this elite is despisable!

Change it to the following:
5 energy cost. 10 second recharge. Elite Stance.(10 seconds.) You have +0...50...100% chance to land critical hits and have a 33% increased attack speed. Ends if you use any non-adrenal skills.

Seriously just make this skill like I said, Battle Rage has been buffed, buff this one as well!

[I will [email protected]]

Nope, you won't. Blind, flaming, diesease, poison, bleeding. enough to kill you, not to mention the ton of degeneration hexes one can put on you.

5 energy, 20 second recharge. Skill. 10 seconds. Imune to conditions. Failure if 9 Strength or less.

[You Will [email protected]]

Useless! You already should have 10 adrenaline when your victim is at 50%. This is a bad skill the way it is.

4 Adrenaline cost. Shout. You deal +5...15...20 damage. Ends after 0...2...3 attacks.

Maybe add a recharge or something.

[Charging [email protected]]

Nice IMS, sweet damage. Not worth a slot if you're not running though. So, either make it end after x attacks, or NOT end when you use a skill. Stack with Bulls!!

[Warrior's [email protected]]

10 seconds of unblockable attacks every minute. Half your pool for 10 seconds. Blind!!!!!
Useless skill unless changed.
5 energy cost. 20 or 25 second recharge.

[[email protected]]

Crap damage, worst drawback ever. This skill is not made for warriors. I don't care if assassins use it well. It belongs to the warrior profession and as such should be made to help the warrior.
Change to strength. Melee Attack. +40 Damage. Unblockable. No KD, no Disable utilities.

[Skull Crack]

Warrior can daze, at the cost of 9 adrenaline and timing.
Remove the condition for daze and this skill will be actually useful!

That's all for now. And it's a lot

.
Please keep to polite (hypocrites!) comments and instructive ones, rather than the usual "Meh!" "Naaaaah" "Eh?" "Crap!" "Overpowered!!!".
If the thread has some succes and ideas I will make a more detailed description if possible of why these changes should be made

smilingscar · Sep 11, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

"I Will Survive" seems to be the more overpowered change you've made. Too much, but I agree it needs changed. Making warriors immune to blind is a no-no.

How about 5e 20r "For 1...10 seconds you gain +3 health regeneration for each condition suffered by each party member."

You will be the only one to survive.

N1ghtstalker · Sep 11, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

[quivering blade] isn't that bad!
it's got a high damage output for a low adrenaline cost
combine it with utility like [plague touch] and you have a good combo in the case of facing a [guardian] monk
and plague touch can also be used to remove other conditions like blind

for [skull crack]
seeing other daze inflicting skills the dazed condition is a tough condition to apply to someone seeing the effects it can have
if you remove the interupting for daze then keep the 9 adrenaline cost but make it a normal melee attack with normal attack speed to make it less of a threat and a possible interupt is still possible

mastar of warrior · Sep 11, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

[frenzy]
needs a buff!

Age · Sep 11, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

This could use buff [endure pain] as it is some what broken either longer duration or shorter recharge.

MithranArkanere · Sep 11, 2008, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Let's see...
- Turn one Prophecies Elite skill into normal skill (also turn one non-Elite mesmer into elite and add remainin non-elite skills) so the numbers match for all of them.
- Make one core Hammer Mastery skill deal conditional cracked armor.

Dre · Sep 11, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by smilingscar

"I Will Survive" seems to be the more overpowered change you've made. Too much, but I agree it needs changed. Making warriors immune to blind is a no-no.

How about 5e 20r "For 1...10 seconds you gain +3 health regeneration for each condition suffered by each party member."

You will be the only one to survive.

how about: 5e 20s recharge "lose all conditions"

SmokingHotImolation · Sep 11, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mastar of warrior

[frenzy]
needs a buff!

No. Its one of the most balanced skills in the game.

smilingscar · Sep 11, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dre

how about: 5e 20s recharge "lose all conditions"

Why not just bring purge conditions then? Same cost and recharge.

The problem is that it's essentially a non-elite form of melandru's resilience, and difficult to balance. It's time for a functionality change. Perhaps some damage reduction per condition suffered instead of regen, or remove one condition with next melee attack, or gain double adrenaline while suffering from a condition.

Xsiriss · Sep 11, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quivering blade is alright, they just need to put it back to 4 adrenaline so it can be spammable again, which is what sword attacks are meant to be used for. I would love a sword version of eviscrete, with bleeding too maybe but with medium condition length and bonus damage so that people don't QQ too much.

noneedforclevernames · Sep 11, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

I quit after reading your first example, when you compared DPS on an Axe and a Sword. An Axe is not the same as a Sword.

Stormbringer · Sep 11, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker

[quivering blade] isn't that bad!
it's got a high damage output for a low adrenaline cost
combine it with utility like [plague touch] and you have a good combo in the case of facing a [guardian] monk
and plague touch can also be used to remove other conditions like blind

You're outdated. Check wiki for what Quivering does. 5 adrenal. same damage as before, 5 seconds daze if you hit a moving foe.

Quote:

for [Skull Crack]
seeing other daze inflicting skills the dazed condition is a tough condition to apply to someone seeing the effects it can have
if you remove the interupting for daze then keep the 9 adrenaline cost but make it a normal melee attack with normal attack speed to make it less of a threat and a possible interupt is still possible

Take your Broadheaded Arrow, a shortbow, get melee range, infilct a 20 second daze without any other condition. It's dumb I know.
But seeing as the warrior's bane is the caster (lots of em) we should have a real skill against them. Ours is good but the condition may be hard to use... especially with all those near instant cast spells.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Let's see...
- Turn one Prophecies Elite skill into normal skill (also turn one non-Elite mesmer into elite and add remainin non-elite skills) so the numbers match for all of them.
- Make one core Hammer Mastery skill deal conditional cracked armor.

You my good man need to explain yourself or not comment at all. As for the Hammer Mastery skill, sure, pick one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneedforclevernames

I quit after reading your first example, when you compared DPS on an Axe and a Sword. An Axe is not the same as a Sword.

Quit the forum. Quit G.W. Tell the obvious to someone else. Or I should just report your useful post!
I made that comparison for a reason. Read again and again until you figure it out.

Trylo · Sep 11, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

warriors are one of the most (if not THE most) balanced classes in the game. your changes would make them overpowered in quite a few aspects, and i would rather not see them implemented. ever.

ps - sword =/= axe. swords do not need an eviscerate, plus crippling slash already compresses the bar (which is the main reason evisc. is so popular).

zelgadissan · Sep 11, 2008, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormbringer

You my good man need to explain yourself or not comment at all.

As a mesmer main, I can very easily explain what he's saying. Warriors have one extra elite that other core classes don't have. Mesmers have one less elite that other core classes do have. He's calling for balance, much like you are.

Proph only elites (I'll list them by name if I have to):
Ranger - 10
Monk - 10
Necro - 10
Ele - 10
Warrior - 11
Mesmer - 9

On topic: for the most part I think warriors are pretty balanced as is - feel free to explain why I'm wrong. I can't picture why they'd change Dslash to a sword version of Eviscerate. Weapons have different skills for a reason. I also think Flourish has to stay 1 sec because the benefits of an almost instantly full energy pool could be OP if it was any faster.

Robbert Monga · Sep 12, 2008, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

for the most part I think warriors are pretty balanced as is - feel free to explain why I'm wrong.

Assasin can outspike you and still have much better self defense. Derv can outlast and outpressure you easily. R/X ... ugh don't even start me on those... Your armor doesn't do squat anymore (even if you are not frenzying) because of insane amout or armor ignoring shit and degen coming from assasins and NF skills. You are limited in applying conditions and utility. You are shut down by a fart in your general direction. You throw your whole skillbar to deal damage just to keep on par with a sin or R/D spamming 1,2,3 in godmode called permablock, while still having selfheal and condition removal.
The only thing you still have better than others is KD, but that alone doesn't kill stuff. In short you are slow, ugly and dumb tank that used to be balanced, but now just a scarecrow of the past and pve dummy.

Speaking of what needs to be fixed:
- wild blow
- whole tactics line

ALF71BE · Sep 12, 2008, 02:25 AM // 02:25

^ It's not that warriors aren't balanced, is just that Assassins and scythes are way too OP.

However they don't last long in the battlefield.

Any shutdown that applies to a warrior also applies for a sin/derv/ranger melee gimmick, they get also shutdown from a fart.

Quote:

The only thing you still have better than others is KD, but that alone doesn't kill stuff

Lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OP

snip

I don't see why you want axes and swords to work in the same way.

Cripslash + Gash also provides Crippling, and you fail if you don't realize how powerful cripple can be. Besides you got there two cover conditions for the DW.

Charging Strike was meant to do that, run. Especially useful in AB.

Barbarous Slice - Just don't use it.

Knee Cutter. It's like that because you could basically spam it if not and charge powerful skills such as SY! without it being an elite.

Don't know why you want Hundred Blades/Triple chop changed. After factoring in the recharge, is not that great DPS. Few mobs are that big to ake it worthwhile anyways. Oh and Hundred Blades is already very crap against foes with some armor.

Hanging Man · Sep 12, 2008, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

The only thing you still have better than others is KD, but that alone doesn't kill stuff.

ha
to me, I think KD is the most powerful thing any of the proffesions could do. I mean knocking someone down, so they can't even use skills, making them utterly useless, atleast for a few short seconds is invaluable.

Skills that need fixin'
[primal rage] completely crap in my eyes. Yeah +certain % for crit, and armor penetration, but disables all skills for 10secs?, drawback doesn't seem worth it.

["none shall pass"] reduce recharge to 20 secs, and I'll consider it.

[crude swing] increase recharge to 20 secs and get rid of -40 armor

[frenzy] maybe increase recharge to 15 secs, and drop double damage? maybe a longer recharge...

I hate this IAS, in any form of this game PvE or Pvp, honestly it can been kept up continually, but the double damage is such an awful drawback. And everyone says bring a cancel stance, that seems useless having to bring another stance just to get rid of this one. I prefer [tiger stance] over this anyday.

ALF71BE · Sep 12, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Well cancel stances are also neat for the typical speed boost they provide, which is very useful against kiters.

Frenzy is very useful in both PvE and PvP. In the former, you're the highest armoured character in a party, so you're the least of the concerns of any mob, along with rangers. You'll notice this a few seconds later after the first spike of damage that you get.

Though since I usually carry SY! I'm better off with Flail.

In PvP, you play with humans that know (or should know) how [protective spirit] works, and thus it has no real drawbacks. You also are considered to be good enough to monitor your target, your hp and the battlefield. Tiger Stance can't be kept up even half the time, Flail is bad vs. kitting, Flurry is big energy drain, Burst of Aggression sucks, etc... So frenzy is really the only choice.

Though in RA I also use Flail.

Oh and it has kewl icon.

Tyla · Sep 12, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanging Man

ha
to me, I think KD is the most powerful thing any of the proffesions could do. I mean knocking someone down, so they can't even use skills, making them utterly useless, atleast for a few short seconds is invaluable.

Quote:

Skills that need fixin'

Hm?

Quote:

[primal rage] completely crap in my eyes. Yeah +certain % for crit, and armor penetration, but disables all skills for 10secs?, drawback doesn't seem worth it.

["none shall pass"] reduce recharge to 20 secs, and I'll consider it.

I can agree on this, but what this game doesn't need right now is random buffs. Heck, the buff to Defy Pain even brought up a new gimmick in HA.

Quote:

[crude swing] increase recharge to 20 secs and get rid of -40 armor

This is a good enough skill as it is. This will only kill ES for those who were smart enough to us Crude when they know it's safe to.

Quote:

[frenzy] maybe increase recharge to 15 secs, and drop double damage? maybe a longer recharge...

Frenzy is the most balanced skill in the entire game. It's also the strongest IAS in PvP for axe and sword, as long as you know when to cancel it and when to use it. Another thing is that you should also be in Rush or Sprint alot of the time too, because enemies should be constantly kiting.

Quote:

I hate this IAS, in any form of this game PvE or Pvp, honestly it can been kept up continually, but the double damage is such an awful drawback. And everyone says bring a cancel stance, that seems useless having to bring another stance just to get rid of this one. I prefer [tiger stance] over this anyday.

Tiger Stance has the drawback of being a waste of 5 energy when it comes to blocking. For example, if you're ready to spike a target and a Guardian gets off on him, yes the spike would have been wasted, but there are two downfalls at this moment in time: You're not in an IAS, which could equal more hits. More hits = more pressure = more adrenaline. Another is it's 20 seconds recharge as opposed to Frenzy, which is 4. Heck, even Burst of Aggression is more powerful than Tiger Stance merely for the reason that the limitations on Tiger Stance's use (You can really only use it to it's full extent in a spike), and BoA has much less recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

The only thing you still have better than others is KD, but that alone doesn't kill stuff. In short you are slow, ugly and dumb tank that used to be balanced, but now just a scarecrow of the past and pve dummy.

KD's lead into spikes and more overall pressure inbetween, which is why Bull's Strike is so good. You can run it on other professions, but it's incredibly inferior compared to what a Warrior can do. I wouldn't call an Assassin a better spiker than a Warrior, because they usually have a 4-6 second spike chain which can easily be negated by taking a stance or something. Warriors are an incredibly balanced class, and Dervs are just imbalanced. Heck, I don't know any kind of Deep Wound that is covered in this game apart from on Wounding Strike. The skill Bull's Strike alone on a good Warrior will outclass a Dervish depending on the team build.

Stormbringer · Sep 12, 2008, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Assasin can outspike you and still have much better self defense. Derv can outlast and outpressure you easily. R/X ... ugh don't even start me on those... Your armor doesn't do squat anymore (even if you are not frenzying) because of insane amout or armor ignoring shit and degen coming from assasins and NF skills. You are limited in applying conditions and utility. You are shut down by a fart in your general direction. You throw your whole skillbar to deal damage just to keep on par with a sin or R/D spamming 1,2,3 in godmode called permablock, while still having selfheal and condition removal.
The only thing you still have better than others is KD, but that alone doesn't kill stuff. In short you are slow, ugly and dumb tank that used to be balanced, but now just a scarecrow of the past and pve dummy.

All melee classes have the same defaults and counters but yes that is the truth. Needs to be changed for one reason: Warriors are the frontline of every army, not a hunchback guy with 2 knives or a dude in a dress with a sczthe trying to impersonate Lady/Lord Death.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

I don't see why you want axes and swords to work in the same way.

Cripslash + Gash also provides Crippling, and you fail if you don't realize how powerful cripple can be. Besides you got there two cover conditions for the DW.

I know how strong cripple is, don't get me wrong, but the real true spike is the 100 damage from deep wound. You need 2 skills for a sword (and a hammer) to do that, and only one for an axe to do that.

Quote:

Charging Strike was meant to do that, run. Especially useful in AB.

Not good enough for an elite. Sorry.
A warrior is meant to kill not run around in his vabbian skirt singing the Smurfs theme song.

Quote:

Barbarous Slice - Just don't use it.

Skill you don't use.ever=useless skill. Needs a buff or it needs to get deleted.

Quote:

Knee Cutter. It's like that because you could basically spam it if not and charge powerful skills such as SY! without it being an elite.

SY! is pve-only and "Whatch Yourself!" is crap now. Thus being able to spam this skill should be made available for the warrior. Why is only the paragon really able to spam SY! continuously....beats me, It's a bloody warrior skill!

Quote:

Don't know why you want Hundred Blades/Triple chop changed. After factoring in the recharge, is not that great DPS. Few mobs are that big to ake it worthwhile anyways. Oh and Hundred Blades is already very crap against foes with some armor.

Nah I wanted Hundred changed. Don't care about triple. And you are right, meaning that we have *oh gasp* one more useless sword elite!

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALF71BE

In PvP, you play with humans that know (or should know) how [protective spirit] works, and thus it has no real drawbacks. You also are considered to be good enough to monitor your target, your hp and the battlefield. Tiger Stance can't be kept up even half the time, Flail is bad vs. kitting, Flurry is big energy drain, Burst of Aggression sucks, etc... So frenzy is really the only choice.
Oh and it has kewl icon.

LOLz at the last part. But to be fair, you don't always have that leet monk that knows what he's doing. And if you don't, and of course you have a leet monk on the enemy team (always happens to me) the following will happen:
You activate frenzy. Monk casts Guardian. You don't hit him, rest of his team spikes you hey, you take double damage since you can't rush. You can of course try to interrupt his guardian, maybe it will fail...you don't have any energy...mostly you're doomed if you don't have that perfect monk.

How balanced do you feel frenzy is after that description.

By The Way: I do like frenzy the way it is, didn't talk about it did I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

KD's lead into spikes and more overall pressure inbetween, which is why Bull's Strike is so good. You can run it on other professions, but it's incredibly inferior compared to what a Warrior can do. I wouldn't call an Assassin a better spiker than a Warrior, because they usually have a 4-6 second spike chain which can easily be negated by taking a stance or something. Warriors are an incredibly balanced class, and Dervs are just imbalanced. Heck, I don't know any kind of Deep Wound that is covered in this game apart from on Wounding Strike. The skill Bull's Strike alone on a good Warrior will outclass a Dervish depending on the team build.

Imagine your warrior is all alone

(bad idea lol)